Season 01 – Episode 05 – The Innocents

Overview

A literary horror based on Henry James “Turn of the Screw”. This isn’t the only movie made from that book – there are over 30 variations throughout the years. This one is fairly adherent to the original story.

This is a very Hitchcockian film and the screen play was written by Capote. There are a few extremely interesting shots in this movie – the filming and layout of the scene is really great and not somethin you expect in a movie of this time.

This movie is in black and white and it is impressive in its presentation. Which is why it’s in the Criterion Collection.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055018/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innocents_(1961_film)

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Transcript

Stephen 0:47
Alright, so we’re up to Episode Five, the innocence

Rhys 0:51
that how time flies? Yeah, how

Stephen 0:52
it does. And I mean, before we even go anywhere with this one out of everything we watch, this one’s probably the most accessible. I mean, I got a copy that was in the Criterion Collection.

Rhys 1:04
Yes, it is. It’s, you find that a lot of times with older movies, especially the ones that are really well made, you can find copies of them kicking around here and there in the innocence, you know, hits that.

Stephen 1:21
So why was it in black and white?

Rhys 1:26
Because it was filmed in 1961. Okay. And the director for the innocence jack Clayton really likes working with contrast in his photography. And you get a lot of contrast with black and white films.

Stephen 1:47
Got it? I mean, they could have done it in color 61, they color film.

Rhys 1:51
It’s true. I sometimes wonder. It was shot in cinema scope, which was kind of a new format for film, because it’s such a wide format.

Stephen 2:06
And they definitely took advantage of that there are a couple shots in here. I noticed were very artsy, you might say,

Rhys 2:13
Yeah, absolutely. And he didn’t want to do it in cinema scope, but has MGM I think, Oh, 20th Century Fox joke. I said you will do this in cinema scope. And so he went to his cinematographer Freddie Francis, and said, Do you think this can be done? And he’s like, yeah, we can work with us. So

Stephen 2:37
it had a definite Alfred Hitchcock Kaka vibe throughout the whole thing.

Rhys 2:42
It did. This was after Hitchcock had left England, which people like to point out, especially if you happen to be British, was that Hitchcock had been the king of you know, suspense, and fear and drama and cinema. And then he moved to California and went on to do you know, great things like the birds and things like that. A few good movies. Yeah, a few good movies. But then, shortly thereafter, Clayton came out with this. So

Stephen 3:10
I’ll just say real quick before we delve into the movie a little more quick trivia for Hitchcock. The whole psycho scene in the shower with it. Yeah, he didn’t want any music there. The the, there’s a great history I listened to about the guy that did the composition for that. And how he really brought a lot of what we still do music wise in movies, because originally, the studio’s did not want to put music under important scenes, because it would distract people because they’re so used to the silence. And Hitchcock did not want any music there. And the guy said, Well, I put something there. If you don’t like it, we’ll take it out. And it’s just like, I was wrong. Leave it in. And it’s classic. So I was

Rhys 3:49
just thinking about this. Because I was watching the movie we’ll be talking about next time. And there’s like, a scene with radio, right? That’s playing. And it’s kind of shot. It’s not found footage, but it’s shot in a found footage kind of format, where it’s all supposed to be happening live. And so they’re very sparse with their use of music. And I recently watched a very bad found footage movie, very bad found footage movie. And I always hate it when they have this found footage film. And then all of a sudden they get to this one spot. They want to build tension, and they’ll put music in it. And it’s like, this is just some guy walking around with the camera where the orchestra come from.

Stephen 4:33
It’s not that found. Yeah, yeah. And there’s an old classic. Calvin and Hobbes where he’s walking around and he’s playing music because he wants a soundtrack with his life. Right, right. Yes, I

Rhys 4:46
know much better with the soundtrack. Yeah.

Stephen 4:49
All right. So tell us about the innocence. Tell us about this movie that we recommend for everybody to go watch.

Rhys 4:54
Yeah, the innocence. It came out in 1961. It falls into the My you know, I have my own categories for horror. This falls into the category of literary horror movies and these are movies that as you watch them, they feel more like you’re reading a book then you’re watching a movie.

Stephen 5:10
Yeah. Which is funny because it is based on a book

Rhys 5:13
is based on a book. It’s based on Henry James’s book, the innocence, it was kind of a novella. I had read it in high school to do a paper on it.

Stephen 5:24
And turn of the screw.

Rhys 5:27
Yes, the turn of the screw. It came out in a in a two part book that had the turn of the screw and Daisy Miller in it. That’s, you know, because they were both kind of shorter stories, right? Yeah. When Henry James wrote the story, it was just received as your typical Gothic ghost story.

Stephen 5:45
Yeah, as you say, it’s got a very Gothic feel the way they filmed this one. Yeah.

Rhys 5:49
And as time went on, Friday ends and other psychoanalysts got a hold of it. And they’re like, yeah, this isn’t a ghost story. This is a story about somebody losing their mind. Yeah. And so there was a guy named William Archibald, who took the turn of the screw and turn it into a screen, turned it into a play. And he based it on how it was originally received. It was just a ghost story story. And when jack Clayton decided to do this movie, he approached Archibald and said, Hey, can we use your play to make movie and I want you to do the screenwriting? And he said, Okay, I’ll do that. But then they decided they wanted to go with the more psychological route. And William Archibald wanted nothing to do with that. So they had to bring in the new screenwriter, and who did they bring in? But Truman Capote. Which is why when you see this movie, sometimes when it’s listed under country of origin, it will say UK and the USA, because Truman Capote he was involved with it. But other than that, this is purely a British film. Okay.

Stephen 7:09
We don’t have as many American films in these lists, it seems.

Unknown Speaker 7:15
I’m

Rhys 7:17
not so far, not so far. And you know what? You might be right for Season One, as I’m thinking through that.

Stephen 7:25
So it’s foreign buddy films.

Rhys 7:27
Yeah, I guess. Chairman komoti came in. Probably most well known to people for Breakfast at Tiffany’s. I mean, that was him. And he, he gave the play the screen play a good old shot of psychological thriller

Stephen 7:49
very much.

Rhys 7:50
And so, the movie stars, a bunch of people who you’re not necessarily going to know, at the time. Some of them were very famous. So for instance, Michael Redgrave played the uncle,

Stephen 8:07
which I assume is Vanessa Redgrave’s father or something.

Rhys 8:10
Um, that’s a great question. I don’t know the answer to

Stephen 8:14
might be okay.

Rhys 8:16
But he, he was like, he was a headliner, when when they listed the movie, he got like top billing. And he’s in it for what? Three minutes,

Stephen 8:26
which is what you said about the triangle with the one Heather?

Rhys 8:29
Yes, right. But back in 1961, he was a famous actor, he he’s been he went through his career. He was in 76 movies. He died in 85. And if I were to list the movies to you, you would know none of them. But apparently in England, they were a big hits. The lady who plays Mrs. Gross, was played by Meg Jenkins. Again, she was in 109 movies dating back to like 1932. Wow. And you wouldn’t know any of them. But she was a recognizable face. The other the main star of the film Deborah occur. She was in some films that you might recognize

Stephen 9:20
I recognize her name. Yeah, I recognize Redgrave but it didn’t look it up. Yeah.

Rhys 9:25
She was in a couple episodes of The Avengers. The old 60s spy thriller not. She was in the original film of King Solomon’s minds. Okay. The 80s the famous remake. She was also in a version of Julius Caesar,

Stephen 9:46
who hasn’t been

Rhys 9:48
now we’re getting into the big hitters, though. She was also in From Here to Eternity. She was in an affair to remember and she’s probably most well known for being in the K And I, okay. In fact, when they were casting the King and I you will Brenner specifically asked for her.

Stephen 10:07
Nice. Wow. So there is a little cache for some of these actors.

Rhys 10:11
Yes. There are two child actors in the film. And that’s buddies. that’s those are buddies. Yeah. One of them was named Martin Stevens. He plays miles, the older brother of the two in the movie. He only did 18 movies. His last one was called the witches in 1966. He’s still alive. And like you can get ahold of his agent, like if you want to book him for something. But he hasn’t worked in a really long time, at least not in theater. Pamela Franklin, on the other hand, plays his sister flora. She was in 58 movies. And when I say movies, I should really say TV shows because she was in all kinds of TV series. She was in Fantasy Island.

Stephen 10:57
Again, who hasn’t been right.

Rhys 11:00
But she was in all kinds of stuff. And to the best of my knowledge, she’s still alive. Oh, interesting. There is a very minor. There’s, like three minor characters in this film. The cast is not huge.

Stephen 11:14
Like a lot of these movies. It’s been very small cast for most of these.

Rhys 11:18
Yeah, right. Um, there’s Anna, who is like the housekeeper. And I think she has one line. There’s Miss Jessup, who has no

Stephen 11:30
lines. Just a very intense stare,

Rhys 11:33
right. And then there’s Peter Quint. And he also has no lines aside from evil cackling. Yeah. But the interesting part is you had two very famous actors who wanted the role of Peter Quint. And they were both turned down by jack Clayton. One of those was Cary Grant. Wow. And the other was your friend in mind, Sir Alec Guinness. Wow. And neither one of them got to roll in this movie. Even though he asked for it.

Stephen 12:13
That’s interesting. Especially, you know, very British, you know, sort of Alec. He didn’t want to do Star Wars, right? Yeah,

Rhys 12:21
but he wanted to do this. Yeah, interesting. Um, the other classification that I put this film under is also a historic film. There are in the horror genre, what I consider historical films, whether you like them or not, they definitely affected the entire genre.

Stephen 12:40
That would be a movie that for your college course on horror cinematography would be a must watch.

Rhys 12:46
Absolutely. Seven is a good example seven set the tone for the 90s I mean, not not just in horror, but like, even like as a graphic designer, like the Trixie font, suddenly was everywhere. It was on everyone’s album covers. It was in everyone’s posters, and that, like started with seven. There are other ones. Rocky Horror Picture Show was a genre bending film. Black Christmas. I’m not a big fan of it. Yeah. But if you want to see the first time you ever had a slasher film shot from the perspective of the slasher, that’s where you have to go to watch that movie. And so the innocence is also one of those movies. It is definitely a historical film. Because this movie has been redone a bazillion times, right.

Stephen 13:43
We talked a little bit about that off air. And I was gonna ask you why you chose this one over any of the 20 or so. remakes and other various versions of the movie? And I think you just answered that. Yeah,

Rhys 13:57
it was it was the first most successfully done. And even to this day, you know, we talked about the haunting of Bly Manor. And while it was a serviceable Netflix series, what they managed to do in an hour and 28 minutes on in black and white in 1961 is so much more impactful. Yes. Then what they did over the span of five episodes. Yeah, we

Stephen 14:27
could probably do a whole episode on that Netflix show. Yeah, yeah, the good in the bad, right.

Rhys 14:35
So it’s an important film it it shows up a lot. One of the other things that I always dislike about older movies, is that they, a lot of times the scripts will be cheesy or the acting is way over the top and I just can’t bring myself to sit through it. This movie only has slight traces of

Stephen 15:06
that. Yeah, if it was colorized, it would be probably look very much more of a modern 1890s movie maybe? Yeah, it definitely had a good eye even mean, I noticed it looked felt it was a big Hollywood type movie.

Rhys 15:23
Yeah. And and that’s, that’s this is one of those rare ones on the list that we have for the season. That was a big Hollywood type movie. I mean, for from the British standpoint, this was, you know, the budget for this was 430,000 pounds, which in 1961 was a lot of money,

Stephen 15:45
right? Because actors didn’t need 34 million to do 12 minutes,

Rhys 15:50
Deborah Kerr got $400,000 for this. That was that was her take of it. Overall, the world, the gross worldwide was listed at $30,000. So financially, it was a failure. But if if you talk to Guillermo del Toro, this is one of his top five horror movies of all time. And that’s saying something.

Stephen 16:14
Yeah. This is my influence for Pan’s Labyrinth.

Rhys 16:18
Yeah, right. Exactly. You’re like I okay. This, this movie, and the next one we’ll be talking about both of them deal with ambiguity. You have relationships between friends, loved ones who are close. And with the ambiguity, something horrible happens to somebody. And it might be that close friend or relatives fault. Or it might not be. They don’t really necessarily resolve it for you. Right? And also, like the next movie, this one has a lot of amazing production things that happened in it. Yes,

Stephen 17:01
I even noticed that. Yes.

Rhys 17:04
So first, the fastest one. Joe Clark was the editor of this movie, and the editing. Not just the cuts from scene to scene, which are very well paced, and very well done. But he did scenes where he would have four videos overlaying at the same time. And in 1961. That was a tricky thing to do.

Stephen 17:34
Yeah, yeah. That’s we’re not for all the kiddies that met actually four sets of film, and actually putting them on each other and runny. And spice. Yeah, yeah, very much a chore.

Rhys 17:46
It’s, it’s just astronomical, I can’t even imagine when you when you watch that dream sequence towards the end of the film, the amount of time and he loved this job, he was working with Clayton. And they were hanging out so much. Neither of them were married, they got apartments close to the studio. And the two of them would like go out, like after work every day, have a couple beers, talk about Baby, you know, cricket or whatever, and then go back to the apartment, and then the next day, come back and do the same thing. That’s great. And so Clark just absolutely loved working on this film. Now the other one that’s much more impactful. And there’s a lot more to say about him is Freddie Francis, the cinematographer. He did amazing work on this film, working in what was new technology at the time, the whole cinema scope thing. He wanted the film to have a claustrophobic feel he wanted as the film went on, that you felt that Miss Giddens was slowly getting put into a box, that there was no way out for her. And so he went through, and he did these little things throughout the movie, to like achieve that just subtly to reinforce it. And one of the big things he did was, since it was in cinema scope, he had the super wide lens, he actually painted the edges of the lens black. So that there was constantly this dark shadow, framing the thought that Yeah, and you can see scenes, it happens at night when she’s indoors. And you can watch because as the camera pans, you’ll see spots that are lit up that just kind of go dark as the edge of the frame hits it. And you can see the slight curvature of the painting, which is just brilliant. I’m pretty great. And I

Stephen 19:53
see things like that we talked about practical effects a couple years ago. This is one of those things that sometimes Time’s the bet. Working with limitations, you get some of the best results and does little things and some of the other shots they do, where it’s like real close to one person and somebody far away in the background. And there were a couple of those shots too. And they obviously really stuck out. And I’m thinking, I can’t think of another movie before this in time that did those types of things. It was a matrix effect. I mean, we saw it in the matrix, and it was like, whoo, and I’m like, Yeah, but this had it, you know, 30 times

Rhys 20:30
before that. And there was no CGI involved with this. None. No strings, right. There’s no strings to tie them down. Freddie Francis also was the cinematographer for the Elephant Man. Another famous film and other films that you and I would know, Dune, the original Dune back in the 80s. He was the cinematographer for that and Cape Fear. Oh, and I thought Cape Fear actually, when I, when I found out I started reflecting on it, it had that same kind of trapped feel to it, as you watched it that he achieved in this nice, cool. Um, there’s a few other short notes before we actually get into the meat of the of the movie itself. When this was released in England, it was a rated x film, which in England meant you were not allowed in the theater if you were under the age of 16. So it’s worse than Are your parents can’t take you to see this movie. But you had to be at least 16 years old to go see it. And talking to a younger generation, they might be like, you know, what’s in this movie? Well, nothing that’s really going to shock you. Not by today’s standards, right? But if you look at it through the lens of 1961 there’s some really shocking stuff that happens in this film.

Stephen 21:55
It Well, yeah, just the whole mental health is Yes, it was. Oh, go ahead. I’m sorry.

Rhys 22:01
I was just gonna say it was nominated for eight different awards, and it won three of those. Oh, nice. And I Oh, well, the rest of it. We’ll talk about as we get to it, but what were you gonna say?

Stephen 22:16
I was gonna say one of the things that stuck out to me and this has always been a big thing in movies, is the musical score is had a lush and fantastic musical sore right from the beginning, underlying just about every bit of the movie. Yeah, been set the tone and the feel. And it wasn’t like we have now synthesizers, it wasn’t, it was an orchestra, and it was full. I mean, if you like the music and Star Wars, I would equate this to that, because there weren’t many scenes that were completely silent, except when it needed that effect in the closed box, like you said.

Rhys 22:52
Now I don’t want to sound like everyone’s Grampa here. But I think back in the day, your music scores were so much better, because you were paying for an orchestra. And so you didn’t want to sit there and rush you know, at the last minute and do a tweak here and a change here and then write some song off off the cuff, that you’re going to pay to some guy with a synthesizer and a computer, who was just going to crank this thing out, and it would cost you 30 grand. This was a full on orchestra. So you wanted everything to be, you wanted the scoring to be perfect, right? And not to be, you know, like some sort of elitist or anything, but I’m gonna bet if you can write a score for an orchestra, you might know a little bit more about music than somebody who sits around and pedals on a synthesizer all day long.

Stephen 23:44
Yeah, it’s the same as a lot of modern skills. You know, a lot of good teachers will push the kids to learn the old way of doing it. So you understand it? Yes, I know. You don’t need to record on reel to reel cassettes, and you don’t have to physically splice it, but knowing how to do that can help a lot, in my opinion. Yeah.

Rhys 24:03
Yeah. It’s really funny. Just as an aside on Twitter, I, you know, photography is one of the things that I follow. And this guy posted this question out there. He’s like, how do you think social media has influenced your photographic style? Now? I’m like, What if you started taking pictures before social media? Yeah. It’s like, an entire generation is like, just been raised to be like, this is what pictures are for. Right? Right. It’s kind of a narrow scope, but you know, hey, all right. Yeah, so this movie starts out. Clayton’s just ingenious the movie starts out it’s 45 seconds of black screen. And there’s a little girl singing a creepy song. Yeah, the song is called a willow. Oh, Willow, Wally. And I searched and looked, and it turns out, oh, well, uh, Wally was written specifically for this movie. So you’re not going to find like, you know, like, with Byzantium, where I’m like, well, this is some ancient him that was talking about this latter the end. Now, this was written specifically for this, but this song has been redone a billion times. If you look it up on on YouTube, you can find, you know, like, those old 60s family bands, you know, right. Pre Osmonds, you’ll find them doing this song. And then, of course, they redid it for the haunting of Bly house. Like this was credit music. So you have this little girl creepily singing with just a black screen for 45 whole seconds. And this is before, you know, video or anything like that. 45 seconds is like actual film, right? That they paid for by the foot. So his choice to do that says a lot.

Stephen 26:12
Yeah, 24 frames a second. That’s quite a few in the industry.

Rhys 26:16
Absolutely. But it’s very impactful. You just imagine sitting in a black theater, you know, and the newsreels have gone past and everything gets dark in the screen stays dark, and this girl’s voice just start singing.

Stephen 26:32
You know, another movie that comes to mind that did that same effect, which one first Star Trek movie, like screen with music?

Rhys 26:41
Yeah. Um, it gets broken. By the introduction of the 20th Century Fox logo,

Stephen 26:50
marketing teeth.

Rhys 26:54
And then the credit start to roll. And as the credits or as the opening credit panels are popping up, there, it’s a very close shot of clasped hands. And as the credits keep going, the hands change position on occasions, but it becomes evident that this person is, is not just wringing their hands or actively praying. And it goes back a little further pans back just a little further so you can see her face. And while she’s praying, she’s praying about saving the children. She wants to save the children not destroy the children. And it just kind of boom, your tone is set. Right there.

Stephen 27:40
Yeah, yeah. A little creepy little psychotic. Yeah.

Rhys 27:43
Yeah. Because she’s not she doesn’t sound well. Right. She’s saying it.

Stephen 27:48
You know what governess says, I don’t want to destroy the children. Yes, yeah. Physically say that out loud, low

Rhys 27:55
bar. So I’m gonna hire you. Just make sure you don’t destroy the children.

Stephen 28:01
Yeah, well, that’s really what he says essentially. So yeah.

Rhys 28:05
Yeah. So we go to the uncle scene. Right from there, and the uncles in this study in London, and he or she is sitting there and he’s like, Look, I got these orphaned niece and nephew. I want nothing to do with them. I don’t even live with them. Just go take care of them. That’s basically what he says. Yeah. And she at first, she’s, she’s demure across all things. She’s like, I really don’t know that, you know, that’d be my first job. I’m just a preacher’s daughter. I don’t know that I should be the one to do this. And he basically says, No, you’ll be fine. Hop on the stage.

Stephen 28:48
Which gives you the feeling it’s almost like Well, I don’t care. I’m just gonna take the first person that comes along. Or I’ve had so many other people come I don’t care who you are. Just do the job. You know.

Rhys 28:59
And that’s true. He does go through and mention that the kids had a governess that they loved and she passed away. Yeah. And even at that he is cold and heartless about it. He’s like, just when everything was right, wouldn’t you know it? She died. Well, how inconvenient for you, sir.

Stephen 29:20
That’s my life up for the rights. Um,

Rhys 29:23
I honestly think that the uncle in the innocence is probably portrayed far worse than in any other version. I’ve seen of this. And I don’t mean like the acting was bad. I just mean the character himself is just portrayed as such a tick hold and heartless. Yeah, exactly. Um, but fortunately, that’s all the more we see of the uncle. opening scene.

Stephen 29:50
He does bring up an interesting theme that comes back later is he asked her Do you have an imagination?

Rhys 29:56
Yes, he does. And She says she does. And he says, Well, that’s good. You know, having an imagination is good. Um, in the end it might not have been. Yeah. For her, for her at least we go from the shot of her in the office to her writing in a coach into. And maybe it’s me looking at it through, you know, late 20th century eyes, but in black and whites with the high contrast they had going on. That black coach, the guy in the top hat, all black horses, it looks like a hearse. Yeah,

Stephen 30:43
I think it was supposed to. I think there’s, there’s a lot of subtle suggestions throughout the movie. Yeah, many ways. The music’s one of them. But, again, a lot of the visuals

Rhys 30:55
right now. And that was the first thing I thought as I saw the thing riding along, I’m like, Oh, that’s a hearse. The funny thing is, when I first watched this movie, I watched it with the same attitude that I read it with. I’m like, this is just a ghost story. But as I’ve been rewatching it, the psychological elements of it, really jump out. the more times you see it in mind.

Stephen 31:20
Again, if you like Hitchcock, this is probably a good movie to check out.

Rhys 31:24
Yeah, absolutely. Um, they get to the gates of Bly, which is the name of the house where the kids live by manner. And before she can ride through the gates in this first like vehicle, she tells him to stop, and she wants to walk. So she wants to carry herself in her own fate. Now that’s maybe me projecting a little you know, symbolism and stuff onto it. It might have just been Oh, it’s a beautiful day. I’m going to walk through the British countryside.

Stephen 32:00
And and if you go with the psychosis, whole aspect, this is almost her last gasp of normality. Absolutely, because she makes the choice to go in so it’s like she’s choosing this is kinda how I look at it.

Rhys 32:20
We also didn’t do the spoiler warning before this, because a lot of spoiler warning, if you don’t, if you don’t know this story by now, right? Yeah, you really kind of been sleeping. But you’re right, the supernatural, or the insanity begins almost instantly. Now, this is where I make the argument for the supernatural end of it. She is walking in. As she’s walking in, she comes to a pond, and she hears a voice calling out for flora. That voice calls a couple times. She has not met the girl yet. She knows nothing about what’s going what’s going on at this place. She doesn’t have a whole lot in the way of she, they don’t give us any clues that she has any idea about what the tensions are the dynamics are like in the house, she just hears this female voice calling for flora. If you’re not, you know, if you’re not necessarily watching it the first time through, you might not think a whole lot about it because kids are constantly running around being called for. But Flora is the first person she meets in the shot where a meets where she meets flora. It’s starts with a reflection of flora in the water, not the girl herself. Right? But a reflection.

Stephen 33:45
Yeah, we’ve mentioned our friend that like symbolism a lot. This is a definite movie up his sleeve.

Rhys 33:52
Oh, absolutely. I would love this film. And

Stephen 33:55
so we’ve talked a little bit about the supernatural, which is this scene is very supernatural ish. But we’ve talked about the madness and psychosis. So all of this could be her imagining her own thing. But in a way, what if it really is supernatural? And it’s the ghosts that are driving her crazy.

Rhys 34:13
So it’s crazy. You mentioned that because I was thinking about this last night and I know I don’t know it might be in poor form to mention other movies as we’re talking about one. But there’s a very easy to find film. It’s, it’s like brand new to Netflix. It’s called the wind.

Stephen 34:32
Okay, it’s a period I saw that preview, okay, it’s a

Rhys 34:35
period piece from takes place in the 19th century frontiers, America. And the whole basic gist of the movie is there’s like demonic possession happening. But it is done in this super ambiguous way where when it’s done, you’re like, is there possession going on? Or did someone just lose their mind And you can sit there and argue it could be the same thing.

Stephen 35:06
Yes. And that’s it. Yes, exactly. That’s exactly what I get with this movie. And you mentioned because I was saying, well is the psychological aspect was always there. You said not really, it was mostly a ghost story. And it was more modern, you know, which, I guess you probably could argue that Henry James put some of that psychological stuff in there on purpose which led them to this, you know, he might have been way ahead of his time. But either way, you know, that was a question in every scene of this movie. Is it supernatural ghosts? Yes. Her going crazy? Or are the ghosts driving her crazy, because so much of both throughout the movie,

Rhys 35:46
and I, I kind of look at the turn of the screw as a good embodiment of society in that back at the turn of the century, you know, he wrote it in what 1897 or something like that, when it came out. That was ghosts. And looking at looking back at it now we can be like, you know what, that whole witch trial thing that was just really mass hysteria. But back then it was like, legit. There are witches running around. That might be the same case here where he just wrote a ghost story. And then people looking back on an hour like what’s not really ghost story? It’s just somebody going insane.

Stephen 36:27
Yeah. So either he’s way ahead of his time, or he was more of a master than he even realized.

Rhys 36:34
Yes. Or so

Stephen 36:37
maybe he really, really sucked. And he wanted a good story. But it came out this weird psychological thing because he couldn’t get it right.

Rhys 36:45
Dammit. That’s not at all what I wanted to do. People reading stuff into my story.

Stephen 36:51
He’s rolling right now. Yeah, there’s another good story about to happen.

Rhys 36:58
So we were introduced to Florida this way, from a reflection in the water, the camera pans up. She’s standing on a rock in this pond. And she is instantly charming. She is very nice. She is sweet. She loves Miss kittens. And she has a turtle. She loves her turtle. Rupert is a turtles name. And it’s not a turtle. It’s a tortoise, which we find out later. tortoises don’t like to be put in the water. So they walk back to the house and we’re introduced to Mrs. Gross. Who is the head housekeeper. Mrs. Gross is much older than Miss Giddens. But as you would have in that period of England, people are aware of their class and their status standing in the house. And so she instantly is very demure to whatever Miss Giddens wants disgusting skits. She comes in, when she walks into the house. They did a really nice job of keeping the house kind of well lit. It looks big, it looks spacious. It’s open. It’s opulent, very Gothic. Yes. But it definitely looks like the kind of place that you could run around in there’s lots of stuff you know, you know, as opposed to later in the movie where the whole thing really just feels like the entire way to the house is sitting on top of her. Right now at the start. It’s very open. So this is where we find out that perhaps the voice she heard calling Flora was a supernatural one. Because Miss Giddens says to miss gross, I heard you calling her and mistresses Oh, it wasn’t me. Maybe it was Anna, the poor maligned character who like has one line and you never ever see. But it wasn’t Mrs. Gross who was calling her which means Where did that voice come from? And again, what’s it in her head or was it something supernatural right?

Stephen 39:09
But the way Miss gross talks and acts it again hints that it’s a go supernatural, she threw out everything she says and does is very much like, Well, I know there’s a ghost I know it’s haunted, but I’m going to ignore that. She has that field.

Rhys 39:25
And Flora mentions that later when Flora is going to bed. She’s talking about going to bed and how she always likes to look in the dark. and Mrs. Gross is so silly because she always closes her eyes in the dark. And so that kind of reinforces what you’re saying. Mrs. Gross. blatantly leaves out important details all the time because they’re too uncomfortable to talk about.

Stephen 39:53
Well, you can’t believe it in this society because you’ll you’ll be considered mad Right, which again is the other ambiguous theme?

Rhys 40:03
And again, maybe you are Yeah. Um, so that’s the introduction to like I would say three quarters of the cast of this movie is right there. We have a scene where floor is taking a bath. And this just 110% set for me the tone of the children, because she’s being a complete shit in the bathtub. She is splashing around, bubbles everywhere, you know, that’s hardwood floor under their water is getting everywhere and the adults are like laughing and like, egging her on like this is a okay behavior. And that seems to be a kind of a common thing that runs throughout this film is the kids are completely kowtow to anything they want to get.

Stephen 40:52
Right? which covers up some of their behaviors with at least Mrs. Gross, you know, but now this new governess kinda starts noticing things. So it goes back again. Are they possessed demons with the spirits of the ghosts? Are she finally just like, well, they’re kind of crap and I need to clamp down on them. Maybe it? It’s it’s questionable everything becomes it? Is

Rhys 41:18
it? The very bizarre thing? Of all the strange things for me to be like, what’s this happening? Miss kittens sleeps in Flores room. They have a house, which Mrs. grossa says is way too big with tons of rooms that are just locked because nobody ever uses them. And yet the two of them are going to double up in one room to sleep in. I can get that for heating purposes. But

Stephen 41:49
well, but maybe again, she’s trying to protect the girl. Maybe she never had, you know, there could be possibilities.

Rhys 41:58
Well, Flora introduces the notion of ghosts. And this is the first actual open mention of ghosts. Because as she’s doing our prayer, it’s the one everyone knows Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep if I die before I wake, she turns to she messes it up. Yes. Yeah, which is, which is an interesting little thing that he put in there. But she turns to miss skins and says, So where will he take my soul? If I die? She’s like, well, she’ll take it to heaven. She’s like, what if I’m not going to heaven? I would if I’m such a little shit for splashing around the bathtub.

Stephen 42:41
That’s that’s the cut off line right there.

Rhys 42:44
Yeah. And then Flora says, will I just be a doomed spirit to walk the world forever? I’m like, well, that conversation just kind of took a big turn. Right? I mean, it was just a cute little kids saying her prayer and now all of a sudden she’s doomed to haunt the earth forever.

Stephen 43:04
Well, and that’s the first hint, I guess. Is she possessed? Is she crazy? Are the kids crazy? Because the mess up she makes isn’t if I should die before I wake, if I should wake before I die, and she kind of cuts it off. And that’s super creepy, but the look on her face made me wonder Did she say that on purpose?

Rhys 43:25
And the kids throughout this movie, their bad behavior? A lot of times is did they do this on purpose?

Stephen 43:33
Which again, are they possessed spirits possessing them? Which is AB

Rhys 43:37
Miss Giddens is right? All of them. Yeah, and that would

Stephen 43:41
be a good reason to sleep in the room. But yeah, that was a real creepy. You know, it’s like if you didn’t get creeped out by the Hey, Flora earlier, now you’ve got shivers running up down your slide.

Rhys 43:55
Yeah. Now, they do. They do this thing that I always this is like a personal creepy thing for me. But Miss Giddens is asleep and while she’s asleep, Flora gets out of her bed, and like stands over and just watches her sleep. Which is super creepy to me. And then to go back to my my pushing for this being a haunting story. She goes to the open window, and she’s looking outside and she’s humming that Oh, Willow Wally song. And then she looks off in one direction and smiles. Yeah. Now we find out later that that song happens to have been the deceased governess favorite song, which makes me think maybe she sees the ghost and she’s trying to be you know, make the ghost happy kind of thing.

Stephen 44:50
And it’s a great thing about this movie, compared to a lot of modern sensibility movies. It hints at stuff, but then you’re left to wonder They don’t blatantly show there’s a ghost there they don’t blatantly show this, you know, they leave it to your wonder and imagination which I always think is much more creepy and builds the tension and it gives you a lot more to think about talking about makes the movie much more fuller and richer. Absolutely. And they did also there with that conversation. They mentioned again about imagination and imagining things so that keeps coming up.

Rhys 45:26
Yeah. The next day, we find that a letter has been sent to the house from the uncle He received it about miles the son who’s had some boarding school and he doesn’t even want to open it so he just sent it to the governor’s just deal with this um so she opens it and finds out that Myles has been expelled a cute little note that they put in there as she gives it to Mrs. Gross to read and Mrs. Gross is like I can’t read which you know back in the late 19th century was not a rare thing you know for like help around the house right?

Stephen 46:04
Now if you want to work you know check out at Dollar General you got to have a college degree back then complete a whole manner without anything

Rhys 46:13
yes room and board including and a little bit of cash on the side. So miles has been expelled. We don’t know why. They go to the train station to pick him up and we finally meet miles

Stephen 46:26
and before that in the bath scene, Flora goes miles is coming home with before all of this

Rhys 46:32
Yes. Which again, this weird tie with the kids like she already knew that was happening. And then the next day they get the letter and find out he’s been expelled. He is coming home. He is this charming guy. As the trains rolling in he’s doing the whole thing sticking his head out the window you know as the trains going along looking all dapper his hairs perfect. First thing he does when he gets out of the train he hands her flowers. These are not the moves of like your typical 10 year old boy

Stephen 47:07
right little Lord Fauntleroy there

Rhys 47:08
Yes. Once miles arrives, cinema graphically, they increase the contrast, even on the outdoor shots. And a couple interesting things they use so many lights to get the contrast to the point where the Clayton wanted that Kerr actually would wear sunglasses between takes, because the set was so bright. And when they were outside because he wasn’t getting the shadows he wanted from the trees in the background. And you can’t light you know, over that huge of a distance. He actually would have them paint the trees, black on the shadow side. That’s just to increase it. Which is just all that. That little bit of trivia always sounded to me like the the naves in Through the Looking Glass painting the roses colors. Yeah, it’s like, no, go out and paint those trees. So there’s some actual shadow

Stephen 48:05
and that type of technique. I mean, obviously they’re doing it to increase the tension it makes you feel unsettled. If you’re sitting there watching, especially in a theater reminds me of three kings that movie where it was very bleached out because they were in the desert.

Rhys 48:17
Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. Um

Unknown Speaker 48:24
so

Rhys 48:26
miles comes into the house. He is just he’s just the little man he you know, he’s, he speaks perfectly. He doesn’t seem to have like Flora is fascinated by reptiles. She’s got this turtle there scenes where she’s put like flowers on our turtle. She still seems like a little girl. At times, at times, miles. I never really get the feeling that miles is just some little innocent kid.

Stephen 49:02
He’s got that used carbon skeezy feel to them about everything, you know, even when he gets off the train. You know, it’s like he’s acting so perfect to impress people.

Rhys 49:12
Yeah. Yeah, he’s really just trying to be super slick.

Stephen 49:17
Yeah, that kid was really good dough. Yeah, yeah, I

Rhys 49:20
was really disappointed to see that, you know, his career basically stopped in 66 there’s a scene where they’re coloring and miles is coloring a horse because miles owns a pony. And Florida is coloring something else and Flora desperately wants this Giddens approval. I mean she she colors is pictured hands tour is like I can kill her too. And of course, Miss Giddens is like, Oh, it’s lovely cloud. And she’s like, no, and she turns the picture and she’s like, this is what it is. And she’s like, oh, maybe it’ll be a famous artist. And she’s like, you Hear that miles. I’m gonna be a famous artist

Stephen 50:03
in her and it was said that her and Miss Jessup had a really close relationship.

Rhys 50:08
Yes, she and Miss Jessup had a very close relationship. Now miles had a very close relationship with someone else who has yet to be introduced this late in the film. Um, they decided they’re going to play a game of hide and seek. And it because they’re asking Miss Giddens about her childhood, you know, did she come from a big house now? She was, she was a preacher’s daughter, one of several. And, you know, what did they ever do? Well, most tended to be quiet. But when daddy was away, they would play hide and seek and so the kids think this sounds great. So she decides they’re going to play hide and seek. Mrs. Gross points out it’s almost their bedtime. And she’s like, oh, we’ll just have one game and, and especially looking back on it now, if that was me, in a giant house that, you know, it was kind of weird and creepy. I don’t know that I’d been wanting to play hide and seek personally. But she decides to play some hide and seek. So she’s counting the kids take off, she starts walking around the house. She’s very excited to be playing the game. She gets to an intersection. And this woman in the costuming and this is amazing. They’re always dressed to the nines. This woman perfectly dressed perfectly upright, walks across an intersection of the hallway. And she calls out, Anna, thinking it’s the housekeeper. The poor friend learn housekeeper who never gets mentioned. It is not the person doesn’t even acknowledge that they’ve been spoken to. This is a manifestation of the ghosts of Miss Jessel, the previous housekeeper, the previous governess, who is passed away. Now I say manifestation because Is it a ghost? Is it just in her head? We don’t know. But she appears to be confused because she thinks it’s Anna. But then she never gives it another thought. Yeah, that was a little weird. Yeah. She continues all the way up to the attic. She walks in.

Stephen 52:21
Okay, wait, let me back up there. Yeah, sure. It seemed a little weird watching it. But if you are starting to suspect your own sanity, you might very well dismiss things like nope, I didn’t see anything. I’m just going to continue on. I mean, we’ve all kind of done that when we see something weird sometimes, you know? Yeah, that’s gotta be the wind. I’m just gonna move on. So

Rhys 52:42
Mrs. Gross. Yeah, right. Close your eyes in the dark and just say it wasn’t there.

Stephen 52:48
Right. So okay, I you know, I’ll back up on that one. Okay, good. She walks

Rhys 52:53
into the storeroom. And the first thing is, long before the whole clowns are creepy thing. She walks in. And there’s this bobblehead clown whose head is rocking back and forth. And I’m like, it’s apparently not just us, because that’s creepy. Yeah. She walks over and stops it, rocking back and forth. And the whole time the music is building the tension. As she’s going around. She finds a music box. Again, creepy. And it is playing that. Oh, Willow Wally song.

Stephen 53:27
Right? So I took it as she sees the thing moving and all the kids must have come by and got it and put the music on blah, blah, blah.

Rhys 53:35
Yeah. And that was my assumption to was that this was the kids still as a visual. It was a creepy image of the thing. Just

Stephen 53:43
Yeah. I’ve seen YouTube videos look like that nowadays.

Rhys 53:47
Yeah. She opens up the music box. And there’s a photograph that’s been broken of a handsome swarthy man. It’s, it’s, what do they call those? Well, the name escapes me, but it’s the name for like a small portrait of a person that you like. And so she’s looking at it. And as she’s doing that, miles comes in out of nowhere. This is like a jump scare. You know, there are a couple of those. Yes. And he like, hugs her. And he’s talking about the game. And she’s getting very uncomfortable, because he’s hugging her very tightly, and she will not let go. And he will not let go. And the only thing that breaks this tension is flourish shows up. And the tension is broken and floor is like now it’s your turn to hide. And so all of a sudden, just like she flipped a switch from being uncomfortable and creeped out. She’s like, okay, I’ll go hide. Right?

Stephen 54:50
So the kids start to count. And I think this is big with the kids. Every scene is almost pretty much something weird and creepy ends something completely normal that so it keeps you on edge like you don’t know what to think.

Rhys 55:05
Build the tension, break it, build the tension, break it. She runs off heads downstairs, decides to hide behind the curtain. You know, that big poufy dress not the best hiding place in my opinion, but okay. She hides behind the curtain and she knows that her shoes are sticking out. So she backs up. And as she backs up, you can see there’s a statue out through the window on the patio behind her and the statuary at this place. super creepy. They’re all like these Greco Roman stone sculptures of like figures writhing in pain. I mean, none of them look comfortable. So she’s backing up, you see that and then all of a sudden, swarthy man appears out of the shadows and seems to kind of come forward. And she’s startled and screams and he goes back. Yeah. Then she does the very recommended thing and goes out on the patio. Right? We we miss something.

Stephen 56:16
Okay, backup. Spoiler. Oh. Okay, sorry. Backup good.

Rhys 56:22
Um, before the hide and seek. There’s a scene where she’s outside. And she’s cutting roses from the garden. Oh, yeah, that’s right. Speaking of statuary, and she uncovers this statue of this creepy looking

Stephen 56:40
cherub. Yeah, like a demonic cherub. Yeah.

Rhys 56:43
And the camera zooms in and a beetle crawls out of its mouth. zentangles for a second and false

Stephen 56:51
isn’t there with like broken arms hands or some?

Rhys 56:54
Yes, the cherub is holding two broken off hands at the wrists. Yeah. She startled by this backs up, turns and looks and up in the top tower. There’s a man of a male figure standing at the tower looking down. And so she runs across the garden and to the tower and goes into the tower. Now they do something very interesting with the sound here. Because up until that time, every time she’s outside, all you hear like the birds. Birds are very prominent in this you can hear them singing all the time. As soon as she walks into the tower, you hear flies.

Stephen 57:36
I didn’t even notice that she steps

Rhys 57:38
inside and you hear the buzzing of flies. She goes up the steps they do a shot where it shows up. It’s a very tempting visual of like the stairs going up, spiraling stairs. She takes the stairs ups and the only person there is miles and a bunch of dubs. And she asked who was up there and he’s like it’s only been me and obviously couldn’t have been him because it was definitely a full grown man who was looking over the edge of the tower

Stephen 58:03
right? So again, she crazy Is it a ghost? You know, there’s a lot of questions. If Myles was up there that the ghost inhabiting miles you know, miles is the carrier. Right?

Rhys 58:16
When she’s playing hide and seek that man, she associates with the person in the tower, the man who appears behind her. Mrs. Gross shows up and she’s like, I heard you scream. You’re super pale. What’s going on? And she’s like, I saw this man. Wait, I saw this man in this picture.

Stephen 58:31
Right? Yeah, we don’t see his face as a ghost until after the picture. So again,

Rhys 58:35
little language. Yes, yes. So we find out that the picture is of a man named Quint, who was the uncle’s valet. And Quint apparently was kind of a horrible person. Very charming,

Stephen 58:54
but horrible. Little bit like miles. Yes,

Rhys 58:57
we find out that Quint died. Quint didn’t just die Quint liked to drink and quit, was coming home one night and someone either attacked him or a slipped and fell on the steps and hit his head and died out in the front steps. And poor young miles is the one who found the body.

Stephen 59:18
And that’s the story of how he died though. So again, you gotta wonder

Rhys 59:24
that is because you find out that Quint and Miss Jessel

Unknown Speaker 59:31
were an item.

Rhys 59:33
And not only were they an item, they were kind of gross about it. Um, they were like, messing around in rooms and in the manner not really caring if somebody caught them or not. You find out that maybe the kids might have like, seen them doing stuff. And not that they were purposely doing that but they just really didn’t seem to care. And so what When Miss Giddens asked how Miss Jessel dies we’re told that she basically died of a broken heart at this happened after quince dies just broke poor Miss Jessie’s heart. Again Mrs. Gross holding back information, which we’ll get to in a second.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:24
So

Rhys 1:00:26
Miss Giddens is like, I think it’s the ghost of that man. And Miss gross is like, what? And then you hear the kids laughing. And the kids are standing in the balcony, looking down laughing at both of them.

Stephen 1:00:38
Your typical horror movie kid laughter that scares you.

Rhys 1:00:41
Yes. Yeah, just seems creepy. This is obviously put Miss Giddens on edge because you find out the next day, she’s in the classroom teaching them. And Flora is being the typical Spoiled Brat that she has been. She’s purposely making screeching noises with her, like chalkboard or slate. And Miss Giddens actually, like, yells at her to stop. And then miles piles on and he’s like, stop it. And that’s the first sign of tension you have between the three of them. That’s like that open and overt. Right? And if that were building, yes, of course, Flora cries. And then Miss Giddens comes over and she’s like, Oh, I’m so horrible. You’re fine. It’s fine. Everything’s fine. And they all get together for this big group hug.

Stephen 1:01:38
Which again, you mentioned, you know, she flip flops in here. She does it again. She’s uptight, she’s irritated, like, then it’s all fine. She’ll smile and roses, which is another very common like movie thing when someone’s going crazy. Yeah, it’s an easy thing to portray, that people can see.

Rhys 1:01:58
So they decide they’re going to make it up her being so mean to flora. They decide they’re going to pretend it’s Flora’s birthday and so the kids run off to get ready for it. And Miss Giddens and Miss gross hang out, down at the bottom of the stairs. And while they’re hanging out down there, Miss Giddens is pushing Miss gross For more information, and it turns out that while Miss Jessel was Flores favorite, Quint was miles his favorite.

Stephen 1:02:25
And an interesting that they both died. Yes,

Rhys 1:02:28
they did both die. So the kids show up, they come down, all dressed up. Oddly, you know, like little kids will carry and candles and tell Miss Giddens and Miss grace to have a seat. And as they sit down, Florida’s like now, miles is going to recite a poem. And miles proceeds to recite verbatim the creepiest poem, I think I’ve ever heard a child recite

Stephen 1:03:00
it with a stare and a creepy low voice. And I mean, again, the guy, the kid, amazing actor in this part.

Rhys 1:03:10
Yeah, absolutely. And I tried to find out where that poem came from. And that poem turns out came from no other than Mr. Truman Capote he wrote it specifically for this plant for this movie.

The next day, they’re down at the lake. At the pond, we find out that miles can throw the boat, but floor is not supposed to. She’s too small. And we see a figure standing in the middle of the lake in formal dress. And it doesn’t take too long to figure out that must be Miss Jessel. Yeah,

Stephen 1:03:56
which if you’ve seen any of the other versions of this movie, you know who it is right away? Yeah, it’s even kind of hinted at so.

Rhys 1:04:05
Yes. Um, so we see this figure standing out there, no one else seems to see it. She asked floor if she sees it. She has Mrs. Croesus. She sees it. Nobody sees it. Apparently just miss Giddens sees the ghost out there. It’s the first appearance of the ghost in the lake. We did see her gliding through the house at one point in time, but we don’t really you know, it’s the first time we see the ghost of the lake, and we’re not really sure why. Well, we find out when they they all go to church. And as they’re going to church, the kids are running around, holding back secrets, which is kind of become a theme here is that there’s too many secrets being held in this house. Miss Jessel says at some point in time. I’m a Miskin said At some point in time, Miss Giddens keeps pushing Mrs. Gross and it turns out that Miss Jessel killed herself. She drowned herself in the lake, which makes all kinds of sense as to why we see her standing in the middle of Lake and address.

Stephen 1:05:16
So there again Miss Gibson didn’t know that but she saw the figure so that’s right really going crazy or is it really a ghost? Yes.

Rhys 1:05:27
The funny thing about it is she refers to the ghosts not even as ghosts but as abominations. Yeah, now there are two of these abominations in the house. You have the the abomination that is Peter quints in the abomination that is Miss Jessel. She finds Miss Jessel his gravestone and sure enough, it would appear that the flowers of flora was carrying she had laid at the gravestone for her.

Stephen 1:05:56
And in church, the vicar told a story. And I didn’t finish my notes. But I wanted to point it out. And I can’t even recall what it was now he tells a story that’s relevant to again, imagination or spirits and the afterworld. You know, that type of thing. And I don’t remember it either. Yeah, I made a note and I only have half a note. So I apologize.

Rhys 1:06:24
That’s fine. It’s the same thing. I’m sitting here trying to read my notes.

Stephen 1:06:29
I know your handwriting. Yeah,

Rhys 1:06:32
exactly.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:37
So

Rhys 1:06:39
there’s a night scene that happens. Where Miss Giddens is, here’s the noise, she hears voices. And she’s walking through the house with a candelabra. And this is where the whole cramped down, you know, you have this whole cinema scope, this super wide frame, and most of it is just black, between the lighting and the painting on the lens. I mean, you feel the weight of the architecture on her, she’s walking around

Stephen 1:07:06
very much. And she’s wearing an all white night dress. So she looks very ghost like herself. So right now, it’s all these symbolic visual cues to lead you down the path of what they’re showing you try not she,

Rhys 1:07:21
she hears stuff, but she never actually sees anything. She runs around the house trying doors, here and there. At one point in time, there’s another jumpscare where she turns in, there’s a mask on the wall. And you know, it’s like projected and like spooky. But that’s all it really is. It’s like a jumpscare she goes back to her room. And Flora is there and awake. And says something about somebody being outside. And she walks over and looks down in circle of these horrible, hideous sculptures. You have miles standing there. And this upsets her a lot. She gets miles and puts him back in bed. And he’s like, Oh, it was all just a joke. Because we were afraid we’re being too good. I’m good kids are boring. And so we want to do something a little wicked. So I worked with flora and we set this whole thing up so she would make you look out there and I’d be outside wandering around in my bare feet. I don’t know that the kids were good to start. Yeah. didn’t really need to make themselves not here.

Stephen 1:08:33
Yeah, but but that it’s like, again, just him saying that not so much even being outside but him saying that is the creepiest part. the creepiest thing is like, what’s wrong with these kids to even say that even if it’s not true, why say it but if it is true, why do that then say the whole thing again? Everything about the kids is half creepy, more and more creepy as the movie goes on, actually.

Rhys 1:09:02
And it leads to the creepiest, most unsettling part to the film for me, is especially considering this as 1961 He says, Oh, Miss Giddens darling, give me a kiss. And like a full on kiss on the mouth from a 12 year old boy. To this Whoa, Deborah Kerr was 40 when they filmed this, okay, and it’s not like a peck on the cheek. I mean, this is like lip lock. It’s really I don’t know why I find it disturbing. Yes,

Stephen 1:09:33
it Yeah, it’s not just that. Yeah. And But again, it’s not a we do have a few jumpscares it’s not a modern jumpscare movie. It’s got all these things that make it add up together to just make the whole thing creepy and unsettling. And that probably would make most people squirm more than like, you know, sticking your hand in worms or something, you know.

Rhys 1:09:55
Yeah. Yeah. It’s one of the things like a needle close to the eye, kind of. You’re just like, oh, All right. Um, the next day Flora is not easily found she doesn’t know where Flora is. And she heads down to the lake and Flora has taken the boat over to a small ghost Island. Yeah. where she’s dancing all by herself to the music from the music box and Miss Giddens because that to get her and she looks and she sees the ghost of Miss Jessel, and she just confronts because Miss Giddens concept is that we’re going to make these kids admit what they’re doing that they’re being played by these ghosts. They see them the ghosts are calling the shots. And once they say it, everything’s gonna be fine. So she tries to get Flora to admit that she sees the ghost of Miss Jessel there, and Flora has a complete shrieking meltdown.

Stephen 1:10:58
Terrible. I mean, like you

Rhys 1:11:01
hear through the house. Yeah. And it just keeps going. Miss gross, although Miss gross thinks what Miss Giddens has done is wrong in bringing up Miss Jessel, because we find out that Flora was the one who found Miss Jessie’s body in the pond. And of course, we just took all that away, we’d never actually deal with it so so Mrs. Gross thinks that Miss Giddens is wrong for that she has no idea where Florida got the language for the horrible, hateful things that she was yelling at Miss Giddens about the whole thing. And I didn’t actually catch anything that Florida had said. But I do catch miles when it happens to him later on. But I didn’t I didn’t actually catch anything that you know, Flora actually said. I do her shrieking though. Wow, that was something else. good set of lungs on that girl. Miss Giddens decides that Mrs. Gross is going to take Flora to her uncle’s in London. Everyone else is going to leave the house and it’s just gonna be her and miles and she’s gonna finally just confront miles, just flat out have it out with him.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:17
And so

Rhys 1:12:19
Mrs. Gross is like okay, and there’s a scene where Mrs. Gross and Flora are in the carriage. And it’s that shot you’re talking about? We’re Florence in the foreground, she’s like, She’s like, right here. And then Miss Giddens is way back here, in Florida, staring straight ahead, won’t even look at her. hates the woman now. And so they leave. And you have just miles and Miss Giddens. And Miss and miles his first is just like, this is great. Oh, we’re gonna have tea in this room. How grown up? And don’t worry, I’ll protect you. I’m the man of the house. Right? Again, fully embracing this whole adult level, but he just really doesn’t have you know,

Stephen 1:13:09
and he’s acting very childlike. But after all the other stuff, it makes it even creepier than normal.

Rhys 1:13:17
She eventually, you know, just because this like takes it like 10 minutes. Just to kind of wrap it up. She gets him to the point where she’s like, just said, say his name. You’re, He’s here. He’s controlling you. And he just spouts off. All kinds of nasty stuff about her. And then he’s laughing at her. He’s being mean and in the reflection behind him. You see Quint, and it’s Quinn’s face. So for mysskin standpoint, he is the one who’s driving this whole thing. Quint is just controlling the boy and making the boy say these horrible things. And she keeps forcing him to see this ghost that he claims he can’t see. And he claims he can’t see and he stops and he looks up.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:10
And then he collapses.

Rhys 1:14:12
And you’re like, oh, it works. Who knows where to go. She goes over and picks them up and she’s like, it’s all going to be okay, miles it’s all gonna be okay. And then they have a camera come in and look at miles again. And his eyes are open

Stephen 1:14:29
is not okay, miles is dead.

Rhys 1:14:33
So in 1961 he had this full on mouth kiss. Then we’ve killed the child. And then after she’s holding the dead body of the child, she reciprocates that full on mouth kiss. I was just like, I see why this was very disturbing film in 1961.

Stephen 1:14:55
Yeah, yeah. That was disturbing. It was

Rhys 1:14:59
interesting to me. That they chose to do it like that. Because in the book if memory serves me correctly, Flora is there when this happens to miles, because Flora says is he gonna be alright? Okay, Ms. Giddens is like, everything’s gonna be fine now, you know, and that was kind of like the end of the book, and you’re like, wow, I don’t even know what that means. So it was really odd to me that they removed Flora from the picture, just because I thought, you know, I thought that was a nice thing having her there. But interestingly enough, when they shot this, Clayton was really big on not scaring the kids. The kids would not get their script sheets. I mean, they’d get the lines and things, but they wouldn’t get them until just before they were actually going to go on to do it. Which says something for the kids as actors. Yeah. So like miles, the, the guy who played miles. Let me see Martin Stevens. When he the day before, when they close shooting, had no idea his character was going to die the next day. And he said it was because one he wanted the kids to actually just run around and have a good time. And two, he didn’t want to do anything that would leave any lasting impressions on the kids, you know, as they grew up, so I just I thought that was fascinating was like, I’m not even going to I’m not even going to tell you what’s going to happen to you. It was reminiscent of like, Infinity War. Now if you ever hear him talking to the guy who played Spider Man, I wouldn’t even know what was going on because they’re so afraid, I would say stuff. So that’s his own fault. Yeah. But it was reminiscent of that where it’s like, we’re not even going to tell you what’s going to happen. You just show up and we’ll go from there. Right?

Stephen 1:16:54
One other thing I have on my notes to point out when she’s going over to get Flora from the island that’s when a huge storm breaks out. And that’s very symbolic. Especially in movies of you know, when things are crazy. Yeah, you know that her her psyche broke and it brought the full on storm and it’s a storm right? Yeah, for a short amount of time and you know, not to be

Rhys 1:17:19
all literary about it, but it is literary literary horror film, in my opinion. Shakespeare did the same thing. You know, you look at like, when all the action happens in Macbeth it’s like there’s a storm out brewing and and so it’s a good way to like Indian vironment even feels the tension and is throwing in on it. So

Stephen 1:17:40
right. Yeah. Good, good movie.

Rhys 1:17:44
Yeah. Like I said, it’s one of those nice ones, because it’s historically important. If you’re into horror movies. This is definitely one you should watch. But not only that, it’s one you’ll enjoy watching. Yeah, it as opposed to some other horror. You know, The Blair Witch Project is a historically important film, right? But if you’re not seeing it for the first time, it’s kind of a miserable watch. And the more times you watch it, the worse it gets. Yeah, right. But the first time you see it, you’re like, wow, that really, really worked. And it’s historically important, because it’s the first time that like, that kind of thing did so well. Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve been thinking about while we’ve been talking, you said, there’s not a lot of American films on here. And I think the reason is it nothing against American film culture. But you had asked for films that most people haven’t seen. Yes. And a lot of the movies we’ve talked about, have had really no release in the United States, which is a great way for it to be guaranteed is something you’ve never seen.

Stephen 1:18:57
Yeah, very much though. Yeah, it’d be interesting. release all the podcast episodes. If anyone that does happen to listen or watch. If you know comment, oh, yeah, I saw this movie in my country, or I saw this in the theater or something like that. I’d be interested to find out Yeah, that

Rhys 1:19:12
would be awesome. Um, yeah, I can’t even imagine like, you know, going to see martyrs in a theater.

Stephen 1:19:19
Yeah, that’d be like first day. Yeah, well,

Rhys 1:19:23
and last,

Stephen 1:19:24
yeah.

Rhys 1:19:28
Yeah, you gotta watch but, you know, the innocence for as much as people love it are really small release. I mean, it released in England, and I, you know, 1961 it was a lot harder to release movies back then, because he had great big things of film and you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:19:46
but so,

Rhys 1:19:50
it’s not that it’s unheard of, because it’s a very well known film. And as you pointed out, you can find it in a lot of places, right? But like, even 1965 if you were a film critic in the United States, there’s a really good chance you never saw this movie. Because getting a hold of it would be really really difficult. Yeah.

Stephen 1:20:13
Oh, is good one definitely recommend I mean for compared to most of the other ones we’ve watched this one is more of your standard. Let’s rent the movie. Movie. The other ones haven’t been so much,

Rhys 1:20:28
though. You know, I think of the other ones who’ve watched by Santana was probably the closest Yeah, yeah. Cuz it felt like, you know, the kind of movie you might actually see in a theater.

Stephen 1:20:39
Yeah. Though, I think you know, probably for American tastes. That would have been a very slow movie to watch in a theater. Oh, yeah, absolutely. None of this is complaint. I that’s exactly what we wanted to do. Right. And everybody has seen interview with a vampire and stuff like that Queen of the Damned. That kind of deal. Yeah, we want something different. That was our goal,

Rhys 1:21:01
right? And we’re gonna end up with different and it’s really odd to me, like the first couple movies, we had the whole dynamic where you have the, the one buddy who’s taking responsibility for everything. And then the one buddy who’s like, more idealistic, and, you know, so here, this movie, and then the next one, are very similar in the same kind of tone about, you know, there’s horrible things happening. Is it supernatural? Or is someone just off their rocker? kennedale? Right. And they, they both, you know, for different reasons, are technical masterpieces. You know, this one with the whole, everything was done by hand and all the detail. And then for the next one, for completely different things we’ll talk about next time. Yeah, exactly.

Stephen 1:21:53
The next one. Yeah, we had some totally different discussion for that. Yes, awesome Buddha.

Rhys 1:21:58
Because Buddha, I one of the other things that I think is really interesting is as we look through these, how many of these movies have been remade? Yes, for a larger audience, martyrs was remade in the States. The innocence has been redone. 8 million times. And lacasa Muto was recently redone, as the silent house with

Stephen 1:22:19
Scarlet Witch Scarlet Witch. Yeah. And it’s interesting, too, because, I mean, I would just guessing here, just knowing how things go in the past, that if we would watch the original, and then the remake, we would probably hate the remake way more personally. Yeah. No. I mean, when I saw the silent house with Elizabeth Olsen, I didn’t watch it. But I saw the poster in the preview and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, that’s the same movie here. And I’m like, that doesn’t look as good.

Rhys 1:22:49
It’s, it’s really funny, because nine times out of 10, you’re absolutely correct. I think the only exception that I can come up with off the top of my head is the ring. Okay, which is an American made film was a remake of a Japanese film called Ringo. Right? And of the two, I like the ring better. Okay, but it’s like one of the only ones that I can think of that is like juwan. And the grudge. They’re pretty comparable,

Stephen 1:23:19
as far as almost scene for scene, right?

Rhys 1:23:23
And like, quality wise, it’s the whole thing has the same feel, you know, it’s, I appreciate them both equally. I actually liked the ring better than I liked Ringo. Which is just a really rare thing. Because nine times out of 10 What you said was right, the remake is just, hey, big. This looks like a great thing. We could probably make some money off this.

Stephen 1:23:44
Right. And I think we’re both in the same camp. It’s not the big budget, hollywood special effects and slick production that will draw us into these movies. Right? It can be a great story, it can be the great, some other, you know, like the battery, just him doing it with a low budget and some of the seeds the way he shot them. That’s what makes it such a great movie. Yeah, as opposed to we had a $50 million budget and we spent six months filming, you know, doesn’t mean it’s gonna be good comparatively. Right? So and we’ve always had that b movies, you know, there’s a thing for those. Absolutely. So, you know, what we really need to do is find one of these movies to sit down and talk about and get Bruce Campbell on here to talk to us with it.

Rhys 1:24:33
Wow, I’d really have to specially pick one just for him.

Stephen 1:24:37
We should find one and just send the word out because there’s a thing going on that went on to summer levar. Burton was at and I almost went to it. And I was on my geek podcast with Alan, I was like we need to start a campaign to get us to talk to LeVar Burton on our podcast. Yeah, no, no, we need to start a campaign to get Bruce Campbell on our podcast to talk to us. Sure. That’s Cool Yeah. So they’re What’s he been doing lately anyway his prime show is done or whatever, being famous. Yeah, he goes all the can cons and stuff I’m sure. Yep.

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